Once you change your behavior and implement the OCL skills, how does that impact your connection with your children, and can it help them grow?
In this podcast, Adam J. Salgat talks with the mother-daughter team of Micki and Katie Gibbs. They explain how their relationship stayed strong because of Micki’s focus on reflective listening during Katie’s teen years. Listen close as they share how things could have been very different without the OCL skills.
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Introduction 0:07
Welcome to the listen first podcast brought to you by the Chapman foundation for caring communities. Our vision and mission is to strengthen relationships and build stronger communities through listening, leadership, care and service to create a truly human connection. Learn and partner with us as we imagine a society in which people care about each other. And listen first.
Adam Salgat 0:35
Hello, and welcome to the listen first podcast. I’m Adam Salgat. And with me today is Mickey Gibbs. Mickey is the Director of Family and early childhood partnerships, and she leads the Michigan regional hub. Mickey, welcome to the podcast.
Unknown Speaker 0:49
Thank you. It’s great to be here, Adam.
Adam Salgat 0:51
So Mickey, our discussion today is one that you you brought to my attention because we want to look at what it’s like utilizing the skills around our children. And what happens when we do that? What does it look like? So as you just kind of mentioned in our pre discussion, a younger child might not be able to articulate just what that looks like. And luckily for you, you’ve got a wonderful young adult woman who is joining us today as well. Katie Gibbs, Katie is on the line. Katie, how are you doing?
Unknown Speaker 1:20
I’m great, Adam, how are you?
Adam Salgat 1:22
I’m good. So today, our discussion is going to focus around what these skills look like when you started utilizing them in your home. And then we want to hear Katie’s perspective of what was it? What was it like for her? How have these skills when you’re modeling them in front of her? How have they translated into into her life? So Mickey, let’s get started and talk a little bit about your experience with the LCL training. When you first took the three day course, what lens did you take that course through,
Speaker 1 1:52
I took the class in 2016, a colleague of mine had recommended it, I really didn’t know much about it. But we were friends and I trusted him. So I registered for the class. And I took this class during a very, very busy time in my career, I appreciated the class, I learned a great deal about connection and relationships. I took it through the lens of looking at how I relate to people in the workspace. But certainly once I was in the class, I could think about the content in the way that I connect with my children and my husband. And at the time, I believe Katie was maybe a freshman in high school. And Connor was a seventh grader. But when the three days ended, I got back to my office. And as I said, it was an extraordinarily busy time at work, I was a little overwhelmed leaving the class because I left with a sense of, I really don’t do any of these things correctly. And I felt a little bit overwhelmed. I knew what I needed to do moving forward. But I think I used the busy time at work to say Now’s not the time. So I put the workbook and the continuous learning guide on my work shelf where I could see it where I would pick it back up later. And I went about my life. Okay. And about, I guess I would say two I probably wasn’t I wouldn’t say I would have evaluated my relationship with Katie as bad or not right. I certainly knew there were some things I could do different. About six months later, my relationship with Connor started to go downhill pretty fast. We just were not connecting at all. And I was feeling a sense of desperation. I think particularly because my background and my training is in child development. So not only was I struggling, but I was upset that I was struggling because of the things that I should have known and should have been doing right. I got to this point of desperation, and I pulled the workbook off the shelf. And I thought, I’m going to start here. And the place I started was reflective listening with Connor and Katie. And what I noticed was it didn’t take very long to turn what I had with Connor around. It was also changing the way I related to Katie. And of course to my husband and the people around me. Over the next maybe year or so I started using all the other skills that we teach in the 3d content. But it was really helpful for me to just start with one piece. And then a few years later, I went to facilitator training and of course here I am working for the organization.
Adam Salgat 4:43
Mickey thank you so much for being open and vulnerable to kind of share your experience there because it had to have been psychologically difficult I guess you know, like internally difficult to do think to yourself, my relationships are not that great with my kids and I’m I’m in the spot where I’m trying to helped people improve relationships with their kids. Right? And so it took some deep self reflection. Sounds like, yeah,
Speaker 1 5:07
exactly, exactly. It was sort of like of all the people in the world I shouldn’t be failing at this
Adam Salgat 5:12
well, and again, thank you for being open and talking about that and kind of setting the table for us to bring in your lovely daughter, Katie. Katie, before I asked you about what it was like, with your mom, trying to change the way that she was communicating with you guys, I want I want you to fill us in a little bit about yourself. I want to learn a little bit about you. So our audience gets to know you a little bit.
Speaker 3 5:32
Yeah, so my name is Katie Gibbs. I am Mickey Gibbs eldest daughter. I am currently a junior at Michigan State University. I am studying zoology with a double concentration. I wouldn’t say I’m much of a partier. I’m definitely more of a small groups kind of person. And I really enjoy going to MSU athletic events and work out events.
Adam Salgat 5:54
You just heard your mom talk a little bit about how, from her perspective, she knew she wanted to make some changes and that she felt like she needed to? What was it like for you, with your mom starting to make these changes? And but maybe first of all, from your perspective, tell us? How was your relationship? Were you close? I mean, close. Were you distant? Did you were you open with each other? And tell me why you think you were in that state at that time?
Speaker 3 6:20
Do you mean prior to her taking the class? Yes. Prior to her class. Prior to my mom taking the class, I would say my mom and I have always been very close. She’s always, you know, been someone that I turned to for advice. I wouldn’t say she’s my best friend because she is my mom. So there’s, you know, she does a very good job distinct thing, the fact that she is my mom and not my best friend, right. But she is the person that I trust the most that go to the most for advice and when I need something, but around late middle school, early high school before she took the class, I we started to fight a lot. It was every day, all day, something in the morning, something in the evening, something for bed, there was always just one way that one of us was getting under the other one skin, which was very challenging, because I really want us to stay close. And there were times I want to go to her with stuff. But then I also felt like I managed to I can’t go to you with stuff right now. So it was very conflicting time. Yeah, that relationship.
Adam Salgat 7:21
So your mom goes to the OCL training, whether she told you or not, I’m not sure. Maybe you maybe remember, maybe you don’t. And as she tells the story about six months later, when she really starts to realize that she wants to make that change. She starts with reflective listening. So anything come to mind. And he’s specific stories, maybe not immediately at that six month mark. But within that timeframe. How did things change the relationship between the two of you? Did you notice a change in your mom, talk to me about that a little.
Speaker 3 7:51
I definitely noticed that change. I mean, maybe it wasn’t right away. But it didn’t take super long to feel that difference. I you know, as a young teenager, had a lot of emotions, I had a lot of hormones, there was a lot going on a lot of high school drama. And I am someone who very much likes to vent my emotions. And so I would turn to my mom, because she was at home every day, after a long day. And prior to taking the class, it always felt like she was trying to either get me to just move on, and like go have those feelings. Or she would just push some kind of solution, which isn’t necessarily always a bad thing. But sometimes, like either I wanted to figure out the solution because I was the one in the deep of it. And I knew what was best for me, what I was oftentimes looking for was just someone to listen. And to just hear me because I just wanted to be heard. And so I think after she took the class, and revisited those skills, she got a lot better about just hearing me and being there as opposed to finding fixes and pushing everything aside so I can just move on quicker. And that was really, really helpful for us.
Adam Salgat 9:00
How did that make you feel?
Speaker 3 9:02
It made me feel very heard and made me feel like, you know, she wasn’t just trying to say, okay, problem we’re moving on, have better things to do in my life. I’m a busy person. I’m a busy mom, I have bigger things to deal with, you know, you know, as a 21 year old in hindsight, yes, a lot of those problems were pretty small, you know, but as a 1415 year old, they felt very big. So I really appreciated how she would just make me feel like it was legitimate. And I was a person I had these feelings and I wanted someone to hear me.
Adam Salgat 9:32
That is a very deep core principle, obviously, of our Chapman foundation for caring communities. We want people to feel heard, we want people to feel respected. So Mickey talked to me a bit about when you were making that change, to try to listen more. What did you get out of it? I know that obviously we want to provide for our kids but what was it like for you to make that change and see see the connection in relationship instead? And then
Speaker 1 10:01
it kind of was another moment where it hit me how much I had not been doing that. You know what Katie said there was a lot of fighting. It’s hard not to fight with a teenager. You know, Adam, I know you have little kids and you talk about temper tantrums. You just wait. Those teenage years are tough. I, I yelled a lot. For many years. I mean, my husband, my kids used to ask, Why do you yell so much? I, I learned to yell, I did it way too much. It was. So it was hard not to regret that. But I tried to stay out of a space of, we can’t change what happened, you know, or tried to stay in a space that we can’t change what we did before we can change things moving forward. It was it didn’t take long to see the benefits of the way I would change the way I would communicate with my kids. And with Katie, and I don’t know if she’s going to talk about this or not. But Katie was a very, very anxious child from almost day one very, very high levels of worry and anxiety. And I tried really hard over the years to help her with that. And I think I did, but when she refers to me not jumping in and solving problems or jumping in to tell her it’s okay. Those are pretty typical responses to an anxious child. Oh, don’t worry, oh, it’s going to be okay. Oh, here’s the solution. When you use the five reflective listening skills, and you empathize with them, and you come into their role with calm, while they are not calm, and they’re getting their emotions out. I think that was a better strategy to use with her.
Adam Salgat 11:49
Katie, would you agree that it feel like you picked up on those strategies, made you feel better and helped you more than just stepping in saying, Don’t worry, it’s gonna be okay.
Speaker 3 12:00
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I definitely was a very anxious child. And I mean, I’m still an anxious person today. But growing up, it was very challenging. And a lot of times I was looking for a solution, I was looking for my mom to say, you know, don’t worry, it’s going to be okay. Here’s an easy solution to what at the time was a relatively simple problem. So I understand why, when I moved into middle school in high school, that was her natural response, because that’s what I needed for so long. But when I was getting older, and I was able to handle more, like the anxiety, emotions on my own, and the problem was more of the bigger emotions, I was feeling as a hormonal teenager trying to figure out who I am in life, it was really helpful for her to take a step back. And let me figure that out for myself.
Adam Salgat 12:52
Yeah, and be there to listen and be that sounding board. Right? When exactly, that’s what you were looking for. So it’s been about six or seven years, since your mom took the course and you know, been trying to implement as many of these skills which I can guarantee, she’s missed a few opportunities, because I missed a few this morning with my three year old, so happens to everyone I want to make you can you jump in and reaffirm me that it happens to everyone,
Speaker 1 13:17
it happens to everyone. And you know, I’ve been facilitating this content for a long time, I never stand up in front of our participants and say, once you get this, right, you’re never going to slip back, you are going to slip back, the idea is to catch yourself and move forward from there. Right?
Adam Salgat 13:34
So she’s been doing that, at every opportunity. MC MC has been doing that every opportunity to set a good example for you. So Katie, my question to you is, have you picked up on any of these skills through the modeling that your mom has done?
Speaker 3 13:47
Oh, yes, definitely. I mean, I think it’s very typical for kids to pick up on the skills of their parents, that’s where we learn a lot of our social skills. So you know, when it comes to listening, that’s something that I use in my friendships I use, in teamwork I use in my personal relationships, it’s just a very valuable skill to have. And I’m lucky that I had the opportunity to learn it early on.
Adam Salgat 14:10
Mickey, you touched on this in our pre conversation a little bit. And this is the crux of why we wanted to do a podcast like this, because oftentimes you have parents step into maybe parent workshops, and say, Hey, I need help with my kids. I need help changing my kids. But your response to them is what go ahead and fill me in.
Speaker 1 14:29
Well, you know, we all say things in our children that we don’t like, whether it be temper tantrums, whether it be acting out, you know, behaviors we you know, we don’t agree with, and there’s nothing, of course, we don’t agree with them. And we don’t want to see that. But oftentimes, in order to change those behaviors, we have to change our behaviors as parents, and how we handle those, how we react and how we help our children process through it. Because as our children grow up in any stage in life, really until the child gets to about it. He’s 25, they don’t have all the brain parts. So they need help, they sort of need our brain parts to step in. We as adults, if we change our behavior as parents, we can often make the greatest impact on how our children grow up and learn. That’s awesome.
Adam Salgat 15:19
So we’ve touched on your relationship with Katie. And I know we didn’t chat on this. But when you were talking about it, you mentioned even the stress that you were having with Connor. Did your relationship with Connor improve as well?
Speaker 1 15:30
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I would say in our family, you know, Katie, and I are very, very close Connor. And well, let’s put it this way. Katie, and I spend a lot of time together when we can. She lives away from home. Now both my kids do. Connor and my husband connect on a lot of things like fishing and hunting, they spend a lot of time together. But my relationship with both of my kids is much better than I ever thought it would be. I see them come to me with things that maybe other kids wouldn’t tell their parents. And what I even like is, you know, one of Katie’s friends many years ago, I don’t remember what she had going on. But she said, Can Can we go to your house? And Katie said, Well, why do you want to go to my house? And her friend said, because your mom listens to me? And when she said that, I thought, well, that’s making an impact?
Adam Salgat 16:26
Yes, no, that’s very impactful. Katie, how does a story like that make you feel when you hear that kind of comment about your mom.
Speaker 3 16:34
I mean, it makes me happy. You know, like, I’m glad that like, I get to share my mom with my friends. And I’m also glad that, you know, she is my mom, and I get to, you know, she gets to help me with things. But she also gets to help my friends with other things, it’s just a really rewarding and positive thing that we get to share.
Adam Salgat 16:56
I recently was listening to a podcast about the amount of stress worried depression students your age are going through and I can, I can see your face change, I can tell. I can tell you as a topic that you’re that you have some relevant history to share. Talk to me about that. Talk to me about the stress that students are under what it’s been like with COVID remote classes, general uncertainty of like, what am I doing today? Are they going to switch things up? Do I have to take a COVID test to get into my dorm room? All of these elements that, obviously are new in the last couple of years? But how? How have you been dealing? And can you touch on it a little bit?
Speaker 3 17:32
I can say I have not been dealing very well. Um, you know, in March of 2020, I was basically kind of kicked out of college, you know, I mean, they didn’t completely kick us out. But everyone who could go home was basically told you should go home. So one morning, I woke up to go to class. And then by dinnertime the same day, I was driving home and didn’t know when I was going to be coming back. Michigan State was the very first college in Michigan, to switch to online learning. So it wasn’t like we got to watch this domino effect. It was we were the first ones to go. So that was a really big shot that my mom helped me work through. I mean, obviously, college classes, you know, they’re hard, they’re meant to be hard. So there’s certainly a level of expected stress that’s going to come with that it’s not abnormal. It’s not unexpected. But I would say COVID has definitely, probably increased the level of stress that comes with college classes. And in part, because there’s so much uncertainty, you know, Stanley, over winter break, send an email on the 27th of December saying we’re going back in person, and then not 48 hours later, did he say, We’re doing three weeks online? And, you know, it’s just blowing our minds. I mean, we understand where the decisions are coming from, but it’s hard to have it constantly flipping on you what’s happening with your education. So that adds stress. And then as well as switching from online to in person adds a little stress because, you know, expectations change and what’s allowed and what is not allowed changes. So I think just as a whole, the level of uncertainty has added stress, which can be very hard to deal with sometimes,
Adam Salgat 19:15
for someone like yourself as you’ve been open, both of you about how you can be anxious. It’s got to be even a little bit worse, I would imagine, right?
Speaker 3 19:26
Oh, yeah. I would say, undoubtably, I ended my hardest semester, probably that I will ever have, but at least so far, I’m in my hardest semester of classes. And these past couple weeks have been additionally stressful. I had a really big exam with a ton of information to memorize which I’m normally very good at. But even for me it was just blowing my mind how much information I needed to learn. And I was calling my mom pretty much every day leading up to it just to get my feelings out to get some reassurance to have a list. sent to me, you know, get it off my chest, which was super helpful. But yeah, definitely, you know, having that anxiety on top of everything else does make it harder to deal with.
Adam Salgat 20:11
Thank you for being open and sharing that I think it’s difficult sometimes for people to be willing to open up about when they struggle with these things. And I’m thankful that you’re willing to say something, because we want to make sure that if somebody else is dealing with it, and maybe not as vocal that this gives them the opportunity to do it. So thank you for that.
Speaker 3 20:31
Yeah, I don’t think anyone should ever feel like they’re alone. You know, I mean, I probably deal with anxiety, more than some other people. But I’m sure there’s people who also deal with anxiety that might be a little worse than mine. But I think what’s important is just to know that wherever you’re at, you’re not alone.
Adam Salgat 20:47
So Mickey, I’m gonna ask you first, how do you think these OCL skills can help improve the stress that these students are under? I mean, your daughter just talked about how she needed you the last few weeks to give you a call. And, and I’m sure the skills were up, from your mind a bit to think, What can I do to help? And how can I do that?
Speaker 1 21:07
It’s difficult sometimes, as a parent of a college kid, maybe, particularly when they’re living out of your home, you know, they’ve kind of flown there on their own. A lot of times, what I see parents of college kids trying to do, is to solve those problems, they think that what helps with stress is them getting in front of the problem and solving it for them, it’s hard for me not to do that, that’s a natural response, we have been protecting our children since day one. So it’s a natural response to want to remove the stressor for them, or to solve the problem. But at their age, particularly, the way that I can help Katie is to let her vent out her stress, because what that’s helping her do is take all the emotion that’s trapped in her brain and reduce it, you know, if you think about a pop bottle that’s shaken up, what you want to do is slowly open that lid and vent it out. And then all that emotion, the bubbles that want to, you know, blow the top off, begin to settle, when you get to that point, particularly at at this sort of college age, what you’re looking for then is for them to have some logic and be able to solve the problem themselves. If they can, they might do it wrong the first time, they might have to try a few times. But if they can solve that problem by themselves, then what you’re doing is you’re creating some competence in them, because it’s not long before they’re in the workforce, and they’re going to have to do this,
Adam Salgat 22:38
right, there’s going to be a deeper expectation of them to be able to do it.
Speaker 1 22:42
And we don’t want to have to spend our whole lives getting in front of every problem they have.
Adam Salgat 22:47
Katie, have you noticed any of these skills? Or? Let me ask, you know, other than calling your mom, is there anything else that you’ve done to kind of help deal with this stress?
Speaker 3 22:56
Is it okay, if we move away from like, the classes as that’s something else? Sure. Okay. So, lately, you know, I live in apartment with three other girls. And for the most part, we get along decently well. But these past couple of weeks have also had a few problems arise. And, you know, I didn’t want us to just keep living in this state of like, being kind of frustrated with each other, but not really tackling the problem as a whole. And just kind of, you know, making little points at each other about these little things that we don’t like. So I took a skill that my mom taught me with conflict management, and suggested that we all sit down in person, and really talk about what’s going on in the living arrangement, because it’s equally all of our apartments. And yes, we don’t want everyone to be upset at one another, we want us to be able to live and be happy with the apartment. So you know, no one LiCl conflict super. No, I feel accomplished much. But, you know, it’s a skill that’s very hard to learn. And I’m glad that I was taught how to do that. Because that’s going to help me, you know, in my apartment, and again, like friendships and relationships, it’s a very important skill to have.
Adam Salgat 24:15
So it sounds like you been utilizing one of the conflict resolution skill sets. I don’t know what you went as deep as a FBI, you know, creating a feeling behavior and impact statement. I don’t know if you really get down to that level at this point. But I’m sure you were able to step into that meeting with the idea of utilizing these skills and being open in that in that conversation with your roommates.
Speaker 3 24:41
Yes, well, I’m hoping to it’s on Monday. We’re gonna sit down and talk. We’re all very busy. So it’s hard to find a time that we can all get together but actually call my mom this morning and she talked me through some of those conflict resolution skills to use when I go into that conversation.
Adam Salgat 24:55
All right, well, here we go. There’s little skill snippet. We can just move this Podcast right into a skill snapping conflict and creating an FBI statement. We’re not going to do that that will be a separate. But it does sound like the two of you have been able to, you know, reconnect make great strides as, as mother daughter and mother daughter relationship. Katie, what do you think it would be like if your mom hadn’t gone through this? You know? Have you ever thought about that? Like, what kind of relationship you might have?
Speaker 3 25:29
I try not to just because I’m sure it wouldn’t be pretty. I mean, we probably would have worked through a good amount of stuff. But there’s no way we would have been as close and stayed as connected as we are now.
Adam Salgat 25:40
That’s what that’s something I’m super excited to hear the word stay stays connected. That’s awesome. Mickey, what about you? Obviously, I don’t like the idea of bringing it up as if you know, something negative. But if you hadn’t been through this relationship, the two of you might have had my stayed continually stressed, right?
Speaker 1 25:58
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I would have kept yelling, I would have kept doing all the things that I was doing when they were little. And I think having Katie, you know, raising a child with a high level of anxiety, what often another? Well, another thing that’s a little bit of a challenge for me sometimes is, there are a lot more times where Katie’s calling me with, you know, a high level of emotion or something she’s anxious about perhaps, and maybe, let’s say Connor does. Sometimes that gets hard. I mean, I’ve told Katie, this, it’s not a shock to her. Because it does kind of require a certain amount of energy for me to be there for her. But when I think about the lessons in empathy from the our community lessons course, that piece of the course really helped me to, to get in a place where I can keep going back and getting that to cake. And if I hadn’t had the course, I could just see me getting to a point where I had run out of ways to be there for her, especially at age 21. And I would probably be saying, Get over it a lot more than I do right now. Again, I still make those mistakes. I just said it to her the other day, and she’s grown up enough to point out to me, mom, remember, we don’t we don’t do that.
Adam Salgat 27:20
Right. Right. And, and I know it probably is helpful.
Unknown Speaker 27:25
Very helpful. Yeah.
Adam Salgat 27:28
Is there anything else you would like to add about how the skills have brought the two of you together and kind of continue to keep you connected?
Speaker 3 27:35
I mean, one thing I’d like to add, to kind of go back on what she said, um, and one thing that she does that I think is super helpful is sometimes my mom will ask me what I’m looking for. Because sometimes when I’m anxious, and I’m in bad space, I’m looking for reassurance. But sometimes when I’m just stressed, I’m looking to vent my emotions out. But what’s very obvious to me is not always obvious to my mom, you know, she’s another person. So it doesn’t always come off totally clear what I’m looking for. And sometimes she’ll just say, What are you looking for right now? Are you looking for me to listen? Or are you looking for a solution? And then it gives me the option to say, Whatever one it is I’m looking for, and then it sets us down the right path to have a productive conversation.
Adam Salgat 28:18
And I’m guessing the ability to be able to say that between the two of you only comes with the idea of feeling this connected, right? Yes,
Unknown Speaker 28:25
very much. So.
Adam Salgat 28:26
Yeah, open conversation
Speaker 1 28:29
and honesty on Katie’s part, you know, I have to trust that if it’s a moment where she’s just looking for me to say, here’s what I think you should do about this. You know, sometimes there are points where they are in a moment, and they do need a suggestion. I’m able to ask her, is that what you’re looking for right now. So you can, you know, move through this moment, nine times out of 10. She’s looking for me to listen, there are occasions where she she legitimately has tried something or she can’t figure it out. And it’s time sensitive, and she needs to know what I would do, right?
Adam Salgat 29:01
Well, as we wrap up this podcast, I always like to ask for key takeaways. So this is putting you both a little bit on the spot. But I’ll start with Mickey give Katie a little bit of time to think about this. What is something that you want our listeners to think about as they finish this podcast, something that maybe they can work on or something that they can take into their own home, something that they can move forward with as we finish up?
Speaker 1 29:25
I think the thing I would want parents to take away from this is that we leave the class looking at where we think we are with our skills, you know how we sort of do a learning path assessment about how we think we are with each of the skills just surely at the end of the three days, and if you left the class like me feeling very overwhelmed like you almost don’t do any of it. Well, pick one thing. Just pick a skill. Is it empathy, is it listening? Is it effective confrontation, whatever it is, pick one thing and just try doing it different. And as you try doing it different, you’re gonna fall, because it’s like brushing your teeth with the other hand, if I asked you to get up every morning and brush your teeth with your non dominant hand, you would have toothpaste all over your mouth. So okay, eventually you won’t, you’ll get it right, and your brain is going to learn to do it the way you want to do it because your brain has muscle memory. So just keep trying, and don’t beat yourself up about it. That’s great advice.
Adam Salgat 30:25
I remember, by the way, someone that was told in our class about brushing with your obscene, you write lots of toothpaste all over the mouth. Because I tried it. It was hard. Katie, any key takeaway you want for our listeners?
Speaker 3 30:38
I mean, I guess from the kids perspective to the parents, I would say, try to remember that when we’re entering, you know, those late middle school years, those early high school years, it’s really our time to develop our skills and learn who we are. So like, Yes, you are parents, and we obviously still want your help. And we still need your help are certainly not independent. I mean, I’m 21. And I’m still not really that I’m independent, but you know, not completely in any sense. So I think just try to remember that we’re trying to figure out who we are, and we need the space to do that.
Adam Salgat 31:16
That is some good advice. And in about 10 years, I will remember it for my own good. Thank you so much. Thank you both Yes, for being on the podcast today. I appreciate you giving us some time.
Unknown Speaker 31:29
Thank you for having me.
Unknown Speaker 31:31
You’re welcome. Thank you
