We all have a lens through which we see things, the world, and others. My perspective is different than yours, and yours is different than others. How do we still value people and relationships when we see the differences, people behave in ways we cannot agree with, and we just do not know what to do when people react in ways we do not understand? Listen to Adam J. Salgat, Sarah Weisbarth, and Dr. Gina Wilson Assistant Professor of Educational Leadership at Central Michigan University and facilitator for Our Community Listens.
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Adam Salgat:
Welcome to the Our Community Listens podcast, where we strengthen relationships and build stronger communities through listening, leadership care and service to create truly human connection. Learn and partner with us as we imagine a society in which people care about each other first. Explore more at ourcommunitylistens.org.
Hello everyone, my name is Adam Salgat and today’s topic is connecting despite differences. We all have a lens through which we see things, the world and others. My perspective is different than yours and yours is different than others. How do we still value people and relationships? When we see the differences, when people behave in ways we cannot agree with, or when they react in ways we do not understand. If you want to talk more about this topic, join one of our connect sessions held every third Thursday, and fourth Tuesday of the month. We will dig deeper into this podcast topic, engage in conversation and identify areas where we can improve and grow. Well, I’d like to welcome in two wonderful women to the podcast today. Sarah Weisbarth, leader of curriculum improvement and development at Our Community Listens. How are you doing today, Sarah?
Sarah Weisbarth:
As always Adam. I am doing well.
Adam Salgat:
And with us today we have an additional guest. Gina Wilson assistant professor of educational leadership at Central Michigan University. Welcome to the podcast Gina.
Gina Wilson:
Thank you. I’m so excited to be here with you both.
Adam Salgat:
Sarah, why don’t you set the table a little bit for us as we start down this conversation?
Sarah Weisbarth:
I sure will. I’m really excited about this conversation because Gina and I actually had this conversation once already. We work on a project together within our community, and we recorded a podcast with you, Adam, where we were talking about differences and being able to see differences in other people. But then, what do we do when people behave in a way that we can’t accept? How do we maintain relationships? How do we strive to understand others when we can’t agree with their perspective or their behavior? Basically a whole conversation around, man it is hard to navigate differences and still acknowledge that we care about people and want to treat them with respect and value them. It’s hard.
Adam Salgat:
It definitely is difficult. And I know even though we may not have as many in-person gatherings coming up here in the month of December for Christmas, it doesn’t mean that these difficult conversations or difficult situations don’t arise, maybe via social media, obviously very nowadays. Or even in workplace settings, whether they’re virtual or in-person. So with so much division happening in our nation and the world, what are we missing when it comes to creating unity connection and understanding?
Sarah Weisbarth:
So this is really just the intent of what we’re really talking about. And so when we think about those differences and maybe it is. We talked in our last podcast about sweet potatoes at the Thanksgiving table, yet the truth is people have so many difference of opinion because of the perspective that they’re coming from. And I think for me, if I’m so incredibly tied to my need to be right or be heard, or have others agree with me in my point of view, that’s when I’m going to lose sight of that other person’s perspective. And that they also have that same need to be heard. And for me it’s about judgment.
It is so easy for me to move into judgment and look at someone else, their behavior, their opinion, something that they’ve said, and just instantly apply my own perspective, my own opinion, which is essentially my own judgment upon them. And the thing I have really been working on. And I actually, I was in a webinar earlier today, where in the breakout room I had a gentleman helped me with this. I’ve been really working on slowing down and trying to see things from the other person’s perspective and recognizing the impact then of my judgment, my opinion, my behavior on them, just as much as there is as having an impact on me. So that’s what I really have been working on. Gina, what are your thoughts?
Gina Wilson:
Well, I am all about human connection and relationships and I value them to very high degree in my life and I seek them out intentionally and I cultivate them and I tend to them because I know how important they are. And I think that unfortunately during this time of physical distance, and even though we’re connecting on screens, I think the space, the literal physical space of six feet or more really allows for interpretation and for our memory to be short about why we connected with that person in the first place. And unfortunately, we are very self centric in our viewpoints and because we’d been very isolated, I think we’ve been living in them.
So when that space has been created we immediately go to what you articulated Sarah with that judgment, because I know myself. I view our fancy myself as whatever good righteous, ethical, just, whatever we are owning. And so when there’s a counterpoint, which coming at us in words these days, again, through social media like Adam said. We immediately go to that space of judgment. We fill the space because there’s not a lot of pushback from it. Because we’re not in conversation with people we’re in micro moments of text with people. And we’re not doing well by the space.
We are filling it with a lot of in assuming the worst and to compliment judgment, we’re not giving benefit of the doubt to the people that we love and the people that we have relationship with. We are just assuming the worst, applying horrible judgment, and then [inaudible 00:06:43]. And then we can think worse about them because we’ve already put them at a lesser standard than we hold ourselves. I’ve reconciled that with myself that that’s what I’m doing and that whatever I’ve applied to those people I’ve had negative thoughts about, it’s all on me. They are not engaging in this process. It has everything to do with me and where I have allowed my judgments to take me, my lack of benefit for the doubt or my negative thoughts about whatever contexts the conversations around.
Sarah Weisbarth:
It’s almost like the physical distancing, and I’m actually pushing my hand forward and holding people at arms length. It’s almost like the physical distancing is manifesting in an emotional, relational, connectional … A word I think I just made up, distancing.
Gina Wilson:
Work.
Sarah Weisbarth:
So because I’m not physically near you, it’s almost like I’m completely unaware of the impact of my judgment, my behavior, my perspective on you. And that emotion, that relation, that connection is removed from the situation.
Gina Wilson:
Well, because it’s two dimensional. In a past life I was a principal, and a middle school disciplinarian. And one of my favorite exercises to do would be after a cyber bullying incident. Where horrible things were said about a certain student. And I was printed up from a student who said it, and I would bring them together and ask them to read it. In the presence of the person that they started about and they couldn’t. They physically could not. When that student, when that peer, when that old friend or new friends was across from them, they physically couldn’t say it. Because they couldn’t look at them in a three dimensional human form and say those things that they had just … Sometimes 12 hours before, very freely put out to the world.
And so that’s how we’re living right now. We’re living things that we are thinking about each other, texting about each other, responding to each other, replying to on our statuses. We would never engage in those activities if we were able to be next to the ones that we love. And I think that context is really important because we have to understand that our reality right now is not the reality that we’re used to and so that void may be affecting our connections and our viewpoints.
Adam Salgat:
Gina, I know in our other conversation, you talked about how you chose to go through the world and the different things that set up your potential judgment calls. Could you touch on that? Give us a little bit of your background and those pieces and paint that picture for us.
Gina Wilson:
No, absolutely. And I think that going back to that two dimensional person that we are on social media, oftentimes when we’re in depth to bring the world to someone who we don’t know very well. We are that two dimensional person, even if we’re passing each other in a store. And for me I am of Latin mex ascent my husband’s African-American. I have a son and I have a daughter who suffers … She doesn’t suffer, believe me. She doesn’t suffer. I have a daughter who has cognitive disabilities, and sometimes that’s an optic for her other times it’s not just depends on what she’s participating in.
And what I know if just some of those optics that my family … That are a part of us could be negative connotations, stereotypes, assumptions could be applied by anyone that we are walking by or interacting with. And I have the choice as a human in our space to be on defense, that someone is going to receive me that way. And I’m ready locked and engaged to defend correct interrupt and deal with whatever may come our way. Or I can assume benefit … Give these people better for the doubt, even if they’re strangers. Not for their benefit, although it does benefit them. But for me, because I don’t want to pass strangers and assume that they’re judging my family based on their optics. Any optic.
I don’t want to smile at a stranger and assume that because they didn’t smile at me, it’s because my husband’s African-American or because I’m black mex or because I don’t want to make any of those assumptions because that’s exactly what they would be. I want to assume oh, they must not have seen me smiles, or maybe they’re having a bad day, I’m really glad I smiled at them. So I do have that control and power over how I receive and perceive interactions and it’s a choice. And you have to have the high energy, because if you come across someone on maybe a time you don’t have the energy to do it, maybe then you’re going to surrender to those negative thoughts or get defensive. But it is a personal choice and it’s about you knowing what you’re capable of in those moments.
Adam Salgat:
Sarah, you shouldn’t be surprised that I mentioned that to her because I love the power of choice so much. We talk about it a lot and I constantly constantly think about it and know that that’s a part of who I am for sure. So when Gina shared that in the prior conversation, I connected with it immediately. When you’re thinking about that power of choice, when it comes to entering a confrontation or just a difficult conversation with someone, Sarah, what choices do you make going into a conversation. [crosstalk 00:12:47] yourself.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah. So listening to Gina, I’m thinking about … We talk about how every behavior is an expression of a need or it comes from our values. And that’s really my perspective. I’m entering the world with a bias, I am. Quite frankly one of my biases is a positivity bias. I just think everything’s going to be fine and wonderful, I can see the silver lining. I think I’m a pretty positive person. But even that perspective which we could probably argue as a quote unquote, good one, if we wanted to qualify a bias, still has impact on others. Because if someone else is struggling and the attitude that I come to them with is like, “Oh, it’ll be fine.” That’s not a good choice on my part to have that behavior.
So just even thinking about how this all interrelates. My behaviors are going to be an expression of how I see the world. And so when I am entering into a difficult conversation, or maybe I just know I’m going to be around people that we just share different views.
Adam Salgat:
Right.
Sarah Weisbarth:
And I even slow down and I say that because it’s like, man, when you go into those moments, you almost have to gear up for it. Gina was saying, man, I don’t even know how always have the energy for it. I think one of the things I do is like ground myself and gut check myself and be like, all right, you know you’re going to have a difference of opinion with this individual. And decide is it worth? And I guess I would put worth in little quotations. Is the relationship worth? Is my energy worth? Is this moment worth engaging in a conversation with them at this moment? And I have to check myself first and say, what’s my intent, what’s my motive.
If I’m going to enter this conversation with them is it to prove my point, is it to try to change their mind? Is it to one, up them and power up over them? Or is my motive to try to come to some sort of like, well, let me try to understand where you’re coming from so that then maybe you can understand where I’m coming from. And then maybe just maybe we can come a little closer together on our understanding.
Adam Salgat:
Thank you both for giving me your perspective there and your background about how you approach those and also how you view the world. I think that comes into play. We’re going to take a quick break and we’re going to come back with conversation around the phrase, agreed to disagree. Join others across the country and world in an interactive webinar called The Art of Crafting and Delivering Confrontation Messages. When emotions run high, our non-verbal express more than we realize. After reviewing the essential components of an effective confrontation message, we will focus on the significance of our nonverbal communication in delivering the message and then positioning ourselves to listen well. Join us as we fine tune the messages we craft and send.
So agree to disagree. Sarah, when you were finishing up your statement there, that’s what I was thinking about. You are like is it worth it? Do I have the time to get into this? And sometimes you head into those conversations and in the end you say to the person, “Well, let’s just agree to disagree.” And you both walk away whether physically potentially, or even just mentally move on to a different subject. But Gina, you had a perspective on that phrase that I really enjoyed in our last conversation. Could you touch on that please?
Gina Wilson:
Sure. As I stated earlier, I value relationships and I don’t have frivolous relationships. If you’re in my life know that you’re going to be tended to and I’m going to circle in, and I’m going to lean in. And we’re going to celebrate and we’re going to cry and we’re going to do it all. It’s vulnerable, it’s intense, it’s intimate. So for me, if someone in my sphere wants to agree to disagree, what I would need to clarify with them is that now there’s a wall. We don’t go there. Now there is a space that’s not allowable for us. Which negate the other work, it negates the other connections because we’re sidestepping something all the time, which means we can’t bring our authentic selves.
And so when that phrase has come about in relationships, I pushed back and said, so is that an agree to disagree right now in this moment or that shout? If that topic on the shelf never to be attended to, because if that’s your choice. And again, going back to we all have choices but I need to let you know what the consequences. Because then it tells me that you don’t want to know all of me. You don’t trust that I want to know all of you. You don’t trust that our relationship has weathered and survived what it has, to be able to weather in survive this topic. Or is there a fear that you don’t want me to really know this topic, which is a problem because then maybe you haven’t shown you are yourself to me in a way that I thought you were.
So when I push back on that, it’s should really let them know that it’s a disconnect. Relationships to me are like handholding and you hold hands super tight and then when somebody released it a little bit. That grip releases, and you can feel that sensation of letting go. To me with every moment of agree to disagree, it’s like the grip is loosening. The connections literally loosening. And if the more agreements of around agree to disagree, you make, then eventually we’re not holding hands anymore. And so, that’s the choice I don’t force them to make. I just clearly state, this is my value system around relationships. And when you make this choice, this is how it affects me.
And again, I’m not going to say let’s do this now, because I’m going to assume that maybe they’re self caretaking and maybe they’re not ready to have that conversation. Maybe they need some different energy. So then I would need to hear yet. And then, then we’re good. We’re still holding hands because it can come up and maybe we’ll even set some boundaries around it. Maybe we’ll set some time, maybe it’s not a one-time conversation. Maybe we’re going to really dig in deep and say, “We’re going to commit 10 minutes a week to just having this conversation. And that’s all we can handle, but we’re going to get through it together.”
And gosh, how strong would your relationship be if you committed, instead of agreeing to disagree. That you’ve committed to creating morsels or micro-moment of actually listening intently to those controversial topics that sometimes we’re afraid to verbalize. Because we’re afraid of what the other person’s going to view us when we share that thought or maybe we don’t even quite know what we think about it. So we can’t necessarily get into a conversation about it if we don’t quite know where we stand. So always agree to disagree yet. We will talk about this. Like there has to add that yet, so that nothing’s off the table so that we can have those deep, connected, authentic life transforming relationships.
Adam Salgat:
Truly human connection. Right Sarah?
Gina Wilson:
Truly human connection. That’s what we are here for.
Adam Salgat:
Sarah is there anything in that space that you’d like to, well, let me take one step back. Gina, thank you again for breaking that down. Because that idea of agree to disagree yet, I’m already trying to apply with people in my life that I know have different opinions about whether it’s politics or whatever it might be. And so therefore, I want to leave that door open instead of shutting it. So I appreciate you breaking that down and giving some perspective in that space. Sarah, is there anything you would like to add in that area?
Sarah Weisbarth:
Oh, yeah. I have five different thoughts as Gina was talking. Try to act surprised. Even the phrase, even logically the phrase, I am going to agree, which means I’m choosing to disagree with you. It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. If I’m really wanting to choose to be in relationship with you and try to understand your perspective, it’s almost like I’m taking the easy way out if I quote, unquote agree to disagree. Because what really has to happen in order for us to come to a point of acceptance and know that I’m going back to the logic. If we threw out 20 different topics, I am guessing the three of us would probably not agree on more than half of them. And there’s really statistically, someone could tell us the likelihood of all three of us having the same perspective on one topic is probably pretty low.
Adam Salgat:
Right.
Sarah Weisbarth:
And so if we really think about the potential for disagreeing with people, it’s very high.
Adam Salgat:
Yes.
Sarah Weisbarth:
And instead if we move that potential into, I know I’m going to have a different perspective than you, you and you. But I value you as a person and I can accept you as an individual and listen to you and value you as a person, as an individual that truly human that I want to connect with. Then I have to do some work on my end. I have to do that. Slow down, check my motive, think about where my perspective is coming from. Lean in, really listen because I’m probably going to learn something about the other. I’m going to learn something about myself and wow, radical I might actually grow my perspective. And I don’t necessarily have to choose to change it, but I’m certainly going to add to my understanding of it.
And I’m assuming that that is why in general, we don’t lean in. We don’t have that swirling work that Gina’s talking about because it’s hard to choose to do the personal work. It’s hard to want to lean in to do that. And I know, I talked to a group of people last week about levels of relationships and how we have interactions with people. And then we have acquaintances and then we have the people that are really close to us. And I think for me the people that are on an outer layer of relationship with me, I might not lean in real hard with them. I might just accept that well, you have a different perspective and I appreciate you as a human being and let you go about your way.
But those people that are really close to me, I want to lean in. I don’t want that hand-holding to loosen up. And so even, I don’t want to say prioritizing relationships, but I think that’s what I’m saying. What are the ones I really want to lean in with? Because I value that relationship on such a deep level.
Gina Wilson:
Well, and I think when you talked about change versus understand, I think people … When we get into these difficult conversations or topics, they automatically assume they go into debate formation. All of a sudden we’re at podium, with microphones and index cards. And we have this dissertation we’re ready to give verbally against each other. And there’s a winner and a loser in a debate. And it becomes one of … We think that we’re trying to change each other and I’m going to have to change if you went, because then you will, you’ve won in five loss. And I think we need to completely repel that context that we immediately jumped into, because it’s really not about the change. It’s about what you felt, Sarah, we understand.
Oh, I understand a new perspective, which maybe makes my perspective stronger because I now understand it in a more complex way, not just one dimensional. I’m now understanding it in relation to other perspectives. But we really need to again, take that visual debate out and really go into dialogue. This is about a dialogue. It’s how we communicate. Well, we communicate many ways, but it’s how we learn about each other. It’s how we connect through conversation. It’s how we grow.
Think about when you were little and you would make friends and you would be like, “Hey, what’s your dog’s name, my dog’s name is this.” And it was like this battery of questions back and forth in some random park, because we wanted to know about each other and we want it to … Oh, well that’s different, my dogs … And it was so easy and free, but we understood that in order to get closer to this person, we had to know them. And we had to ask lots of questions and then be willing to share. And too often, when that exchange happens, they face something and we’re like, “Oh, okay, that’s over. Moving on.” Or we looked at the person next to them and be like, “Yeah, don’t make friends with them.”
Instead of saying, get curious and say, “I wonder what makes you say that?”
Adam Salgat:
Right.
Gina Wilson:
I wonder where that perspective seed was planted, that’s different than mine. And again, not adding negative value to different. That different can reside amongst each other because different literally just means it’s different than something else. Not that it’s better than something else or more valued than something else. That’s what we applied to it. So we have to make that choice when we hear different, to get curious about it, think knowledge about it. And then to not add a negative value to the different but then stay in that space of, oh, I’m going to get some learning right now. Let’s do this, like get excited about it because I’m going to now understand differently, better, more complex, more robust and have a bigger sphere of understanding.
So to me that’s exciting when I’m just like, “Oh, you have a different perspective than mine. Great, let’s do this.” I have a love of learning as one of my strengths. So I’m just like, oh, different to me is like, I get to learn outside of self. And I think if we all treated each other as opportunities, right. When we feed different that, oh, this is an opportunity for me to grow and learn alongside of you. That would, I mean, come on. That would be awesome.
Sarah Weisbarth:
It’s really intriguing to listen to you because I agree. And I’m sitting here and so our perspective is the same, how, how comfortable and familiar Adam’s nodding. So maybe this is the thing that the three of us do agree on. Yet I’m reflecting on, like, I don’t know. Have you always been that way? Have I always been that way? And it has me thinking about it is I shared a social media post about this topic entirely about opening up our perspectives, trying to understand others. And a couple of comments on it had to do with, well, yeah, as long as you’re not asking me to give up, my point of view was essentially the commentary on the post and it really like, I went, huh?
It never even occurred to me that that is a reaction that people would have to an encouragement to try to understand others, try to see the perspective of others, because I don’t think I’m ever asking anyone to change theirs. I think I’m just probably asking to have mine heard and I have a willingness to hear others. And so it does, I think people can get defensive or I think we can get curious.
Gina Wilson:
Those are the places, or we can get neutral. We can say, “I don’t want anything to do with something different. I’m very comfortable here and I will see you later.” And I think it’s really dangerous because we even get caught in it, I get caught in it. That I do have a group of friends who are like-minded and I’m like, “Oh, I love my people. They’re so good. They make us feel so good. I’m so happy.” But then I’m also like, what am I being challenged in? Am I asking the right questions? Because the group, I will call it the kumbaya moment of all of us affirming each other, it’s not a healthy phase.
So really seeking out connection with those counterpoints, the people that hold those counterpoints in that empathetic, curious, connected, oriented way. Not to debate, not to change their mind to better understand that perspective. I think that’s something that the habit and a practice that we all have to build in ourselves in order to then not stay in that stay in that insulated mode that sometimes we comfortably create for ourselves.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Which I think is natural. But then just like you, I’m creating … People call it an echo chamber in a negative kind of text. But I have multiple different little echo chambers of like, who do I go to when I want to feel affirmed in my current belief and perspective. I go through my Rolodex of people that will affirm me. And so getting into the space of well, who’s in my Rolodex that will change.
Speaker 4:
Absolutely. And I think that the more that you don’t … And I don’t want say disallow. But you pause difficult conversations instead of shelving them, instead of turning off to them. You do create that trust level in your relationships and in your networks. But then you can come to them and say, “I really need your critical lens on this, here’s the situation. Can you give me some feedback and don’t hold back. There’s going to be no harm here. There’s going to be no judgment. I really want some critique around that.” And knowing that growth comes from critique, not criticism very different. But from the critique of the situation or response, or and that going to the person and saying, “Tell me if I’m wrong about sex.”
And I’ll have friends, that’ll say, “Do you need me to be your yes, girl now?” And I’ll be like, “Yes, that’s all I need. Just tell me, just be there for me, hold space and tell me I’m a hundred percent right. And then later you can tell me what the heck I did wrong. And where I hold responsibility and what apologies I need to make.” But the more you challenge your relationships to be able to be open, transparent, authentic, and wrestle with all types of you can do that. And we’re all better for that.
Adam Salgat:
Yeah. Ladies, I’ve been listening and I think that’s one of the biggest elements that people need to keep in mind here, is that when we are in this position of having these conversations or difficult topics, and we need to listen to each other, you mentioned debate Gina. And oftentimes when I hear debate, like you said, we just come with our notes and we wait for the one person to finish what they’re saying. And we start on our bullet points and they just come out and we’re not really listening to the other side. We’re not really trying to understand that other side. So listen first would be a great opportunity, I think for people to keep in mind.
And I’m going to use that as my key takeaway. And hopefully I didn’t steal any from you guys, but as we reach about 30 minutes on our podcast here, I’d like to get a couple of key takeaways from each of you. Or at least one a piece that I’d like to leave our audience with something for them to think about or something for them to work on as, as they finished the episode, Sarah, if you’re ready to go, I’ll pitch it to you first.
Sarah Weisbarth:
So my voice reality is always really loud in my head. I think my key takeaway from our conversation is the realization that the likelihood of me being in agreement with people is very low, just statistically. And so coming to that realization that the different perspectives that people bring is an opportunity for me to grow.
Gina Wilson:
My take away and my practice meaning it’s something I work on moment by moment, but that’s the beauty of moments is that with every new minute comes a new moment to make a different and a better choice. So what I work on is again, making the choice to view different as different and an opportunity to learn and grow, and to really get curious. And fight any innate bias because of our lived experiences that are different. To apply any negative contexts and to really try to neutralize myself to be open and honoring of both interactions that I have. So that’s my work and that’s where I would say I would encourage the audience to work there as well.
Adam Salgat:
Thank you both again for being on the podcast very much appreciate your time.
Gina Wilson:
Thank you.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Always.
Adam Salgat:
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