Mary Margaret Thomas, an alumnus, and facilitator from Aspen, Colorado, joins the podcast to discuss parenting. She shares with us how the Our Community Listens skills have had an impact over the past six years and how it has directly helped her engage with her son.
This podcast has many great reminders about creating focused and intentional behaviors. Keep your ears open!
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Adam Salgat:
Hello, and welcome to the Our Community Listens podcast. My name is Adam Salgat, and with me today is Sarah Weisbarth, leader of Alumni Enrichment and Mary Margaret Thomas, facilitator in Aspen, Colorado. Welcome to the podcast. Sarah, today’s topic is parenting. I have a three-year-old and a 10-month-old. I’ll be honest, I was really excited to be a part of this podcast because I would love any tips you two wonderful women can give me on how to raise powerful, loving, and respectful ladies in the workplace or not just the workplace, but in the world. Sarah, go ahead. Take it away.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Adam, I know our listeners have heard a lot of stories about my family and about my son. I’m excited for them to hear about Mary Margaret’s impact in her family and in her son’s life with Our Community Listens skills. But before we go to those great stories that are going to help us improve the lives of our kids and our relationships with them, Mary Margaret, I just think our listeners would really enjoy hearing a little bit about you, your background, your experience, and how you came to be a part of Our Community Listens?
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Super. I feel like I have a relatively unique contribution in that my background is with horses. I have been a horse trainer and equine clinician in Aspen for 25 years. The Chapman family were clients of mine for many years, and it was just… Gosh, it had to be close to seven years ago when they had a little building that was relatively problematic. He had some issues and behaviors that weren’t particularly safe, and so it was my job to see if I could turn him around and get them on the same page and make him relatively safe for what the Chapman’s wanted to do with them.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Wow. That’s so incredibly interesting. I’m actually having this relatable image about sometimes how we maybe feel about our kids and concerns that we have about them and behaviors that they have, and we’re hoping to turn them around maybe with our engagement with them and our relationships with them.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Yeah. It starts with just an understanding of one of the unique things that I bring to Our Community Listens is the non-verbals, and I absolutely adore those because that’s how horses talk to one another is entirely through non-verbals. It’s very rare that it’s actual physical contact as well. They can have full conversations with their body language from 100 yards away. My job was to work in a round pen, which is a enclosed area with this horse to try to get him to think in a more positive way and to exhibit safer behaviors. Bob and Cynthia Chapman often had friends and family around when I was working with this horse. Since I had done clinics in the past, I was really comfortable having people there and having people ask questions and happy to communicate what it was I was doing, because oftentimes when you’re working in a situation with that animal, and you’re not saying a lot verbally, and you’re having that conversation, it doesn’t look like you’re doing anything. To be able to explain, “Yes, I am…” In fact, this is what I’m saying, this is what they’re saying and that sort of thing.
It was really fun to be able to explain that new philosophy to new people. Bob, I would take a couple of rides as well. There was one day, Bob was in a suit and he came out when I arrived and I was like, “You don’t look like you’re ready to ride, Bob.” He said, “Oh, I got to go to St. Louis.” I said, “Okay. Well, have a good time.” “No, can you come with me?” I was like, “What do you mean come with you? No, I have a family. I have a business. I can’t come with you.” “Well, there’s this class I want you to take and then I want you to teach it.” I was like, “What are you talking about?” My initial reaction to that was I thought it was like a corporate team building thing where you have the horse there and you would have your employees come and learn about communicating and establishing pecking order with horses, but it was nothing like that.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Wow. Did you pack up and go to St. Louis?
Mary Margaret Thomas:
No, I have another life. Like I said, I had probably 12 or 14 horses in a training program and employees and my husband and my stepson and my son and a dog. I couldn’t just pick up and leave.
Sarah Weisbarth:
But eventually you did?
Mary Margaret Thomas:
I did. Shortly thereafter, it was offered in Aspen and it was an educator’s class and there were a great number of Aspen City employees, a lot of police in City of Aspen. It was a really fun and intimate group to be a part of when I initially was a participant in OCL in the communication class.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Wow. It must have been incredible to use your skills that you’ve already developed certainly with your horses and from your background in being able to connect with a wide variety of people in that first class, and probably pick up on a lot of things that maybe others weren’t even noticing yet.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Yeah. I definitely look for non-verbals in people and it’s pretty natural for me to do so, and I enjoy different varieties of social situations. If nothing else, it’s always a fun social experiment for me.
Sarah Weisbarth:
You’ve been facilitating now with Our Community Listens for how long?
Mary Margaret Thomas:
That was seven years ago in July that I took the class. I started the training that winter and did the certification in the spring. It’s been six and a half years, almost seven years since I started teaching.
Sarah Weisbarth:
You facilitated a lot of classes in that time period.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Yeah. I think 40 is my grand total as of yet.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Wow. What would you say the impact of the experience of the class and then facilitating class has been on you?
Mary Margaret Thomas:
I think the biggest impact is in my family. I come from a large family. I have six siblings and my husband and my son and my stepson. It’s been great to have this… I feel like I have an extra cheater toolbox that I can pull out when my son has problems or issues at school or with friends in that area. It’s interesting because a lot of his teachers in the Aspen School District have taken class and a lot of them have taken class from me. It gave me… The first time I ever had clout with my child. Clout with your child is great [inaudible 00:07:20].
Then, sometimes… He’s an athlete and he gets out of school early, and if I’m teaching in Aspen, he will come by the classroom and hang in and listen to class, which is really interesting to have him see me in a professional light, what I do for a living. When he has problems and issues, he’ll accuse me of using my therapy voice at times. Then, he’ll also often say, “That stuff you teach in class, that doesn’t work on kids.” I will say, “Say more about that.” In fact, get to practice my listening with him and learn all kinds of things.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Wow. I’m hearing a variety of aspects actually. It’s almost like you’ve been able to create an environment through his teachers, the educators that you’ve been able to engage with, with your entire family. Then, specifically with your son that you’ve created this whole environment of like, “This is how we talk to each other, and this is how we treat one another. This is how we interact.” Even him coming to be able to see you do what you do. I know with my son, it’s really quite humorous when people be in social situations and say to me, “Oh, what is it that you do?” He snickers because I can’t possibly explain what it is that my mom does. I’m going to wait curiously and see what her answer actually is.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
That’s funny. That’s funny. Yeah. It’s great. Oftentimes, he’ll sort of sit back. He’ll have his after school snack and he’ll be listening and after people leave, he’ll go, “People think you’re funny, mom.” I’m like, “Well, [inaudible 00:08:59], honey. I know it seems really unique to you, but people think sometimes like mom’s funny.” Then, that’s how I really feel like we need to, In Our Community Listens, while we’re listening to people, they need to feel welcome. That’s my way of helping to get people to feel comfortable in a new situation with class and with life in general. Even though it’s a small valley, we often have people almost regularly in class who don’t know anybody, who don’t know each other. I feel it’s important that they feel warm and welcome and common and get to enjoy the three days that we spend with them.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah. Because it’s really beyond a training. It’s an experience for these people and it’s about life. It’s not about going to some corporate training, to some conference. It’s really about learning some things that are impactful that are going to affect the relationships that you have in your lives.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Yeah. Being able to do that, to learn and listen with empathy is again, one of the most beautiful things. My son, he’s just started high school and he’s playing football. He’s the only one in the junior varsity who wants to play quarterback, so he was thrilled. He was thinking, “Wow. I really get some playtime here.” Then, we’re a small community. He heard through The Grapevine that there was a new student coming, same age, wanting to play the same position. Initially, he got a little anxious about it, but what I was so proud of was that he could put that aside and be empathetic. Instead of worrying about it, he contacted him. He invited him to meet some of his friends. He invited him to go to the gym and work out. He invited him to join the team and come to practice.
I was just so incredibly proud that instead of worrying about it, he just took the initiative and made a connection with someone. I think empathy is such a gift you can give your children by demonstrating it and even if you’re frustrated, demonstrating to someone that we’re not sure, there’s all those unknowns and to give someone the space and grace and help them through what might be a difficult time. He’s getting more natural at that, and it’s really exciting to see.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Wow. That’s a really powerful story. We read the news headlines. We know what’s going on out there with our youth.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Yeah.
Sarah Weisbarth:
To hear about a youth that can willingly set aside their own needs, their own anxiety about it, and reach out to someone to create that comfort in that connection is incredibly inspiring.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Yeah. Well, don’t be fooled. He does want that position.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Of course, he does.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
To help that new person, he love them and belong to something where he was… He identified that it may be more difficult for this other child than it was for him. That was really great to see.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Wow. It almost starts to speak to recent conversation that we had about leadership and how the old model of leadership is like climbing that ladder and knocking people down on your way up. It’s not the way it should work, and that’s not the way we create connection and belonging. Your son is just exampling maybe a new way of, “Yeah. I can still strive for that position. I can still work hard and achieve something, but I don’t have to do it at the expense of others.”
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Yes. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard Bob Chapman tell the story of being at a really close friend’s wedding and seeing his friend walk his daughter down the aisle to “give his daughter away.” The concept is so much deeper that this is his precious child. I take that with me everywhere. When Nate will tell me a story of someone having an uncomfortable situation, I was like, “That’s someone else… How much I love you, somebody else loves that person that much.” We don’t have the right to be dismissive with other people. We don’t have the right to prioritize our needs ahead of someone else’s. Again, it’s so great to see it in action. You can talk about it all day, but when you see people around you living it by hopefully part of the experience you’ve given them, it’s really rewarding. I’m happy to continue to do this work because every time I teach, it really sets up the foundation a little firmer each time, so that it’s not as much energy output to be able to access these tools.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah. It becomes just more part of your being just natural.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Right. Right.
Sarah Weisbarth:
It sounds like it’s become natural for you to start to impart it upon the young people, your son and your life without them going through class.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
It would be difficult to have children younger because there would be the thought of perhaps pigeonholing them with the whole DISC, whether they’re dominant or whether they’re influential or whether they’re service or whether that’s conscientious and let them be whoever they’re going to be. Let them try on different characters, different facades for all their life and let them figure out where they’re going to be. In the meantime, before they are 18, there’s still a great number of skills that we can impart that they can use. I wish I had this from a much earlier age. I’m just really thankful that I’ve been able to expose my son for half of his life to some of these wonderful tools.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah. Let’s break it down practically. Adam’s over here waiting in anticipation for the top 10 things he should do for his young daughters in order to raise them to be awesome young people like you’re describing your son to be. We have a lot of our participants wanting to know, “How can I teach my kid this? How can we get this into the hands of youth? How can we…” They’re looking for some sort of prescription or some sort of class or some sort of magic elixir that we’re just going to give to people where all of a sudden, we feel like our youth are understanding these core concepts and these key skills. But I feel like that might not be the answer. That maybe it lies on us and how we’re interacting with them. What are your thoughts on that?
Mary Margaret Thomas:
I really do believe that we can and do influence our children. Why don’t we take the time to choose how we want to influence them? Adam, you said your children are very young. One of the greatest things that if you asked for one tip from me, it would be to take whatever information that they bring to you and feel it empathetically and as seriously as they do. Perhaps your daughter comes home from preschool and someone’s really hurt her feelings, and you’ve had a rough day and you’re thinking to yourself, “Well, you had a rough day. I had a rough day. That’s nothing. You’re going to get over it.” But when you can embrace whatever experience they had on their level, it makes them, in my opinion, what I’ve seen, want to come back to you.
Each time through Nate’s life, when things have been difficult, that in the big picture, they may be small. Our life experiences as adults, and as parents, we realize some of these things are small, but to say, “Wow. That was probably really hard for you.” What I found with that is then they’re going to want to come back and share with you because in preschool, it may be really minor, but at 10, 11, 15, 18, it might get more interesting for lack of a better term. If you have a history of listening and being empathetic, they’re going to want to continue to share.
Adam Salgat:
I appreciate that advice. She’s going to start preschool here in two weeks.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Yeah.
Adam Salgat:
I know because she hasn’t been in daycare. We’ve been lucky enough to have her home and have family take care of her. I know that there’s going to be a lot of little things from my perspective that are upsetting to her. Trying to find the right way to discuss them with her and listen to her is going to be, I think pretty important, so she doesn’t start to shut down.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Yeah. A lot of times when our kids go into daycare, it’s because we’re busy working parents. Right? We’ve had a busy day and we pick them up at the end of their day. You still have a to-do list. You’re like, “Okay. I got to get the kid. We got to pick them up. I got to make dinner.” You have all of these things still on your to-do list. It’s really important. I urge you, at very least, take the time in that drive from daycare to find out everything that they want to share with you about what their day was like, and do your very best to be present and listen because it’s setting up the framework for the future.
Adam Salgat:
That being present, I think is very important. I’ve said this multiple times on our podcast about myself being very technology driven, being on my phone, looking at emails, sometimes just not doing anything at all. She has said to me, “Hey, will you come play with me?” I’m on my phone. I’m like, “You know what? Yeah. Go put your phone somewhere else, man. Go put it in a drawer. Turn the volume up in case somebody calls.” But other than that, you have to really make conscious effort to give them time. Otherwise, minutes go by and next thing you know, hours have gone by and I haven’t utilized the time that I really should have.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
The days are long, but the years are short is so true.
Adam Salgat:
When you took the class and started coming back home and thinking about incorporating these skills, do you remember what some of the early skills, one of the first things you started doing? What was one of the first ones that you started incorporating?
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Just what we were talking about, being present and really listening and taking into account that if dinner’s late or if bedtime is late, it really doesn’t matter. Taking the time not to miss those little gems as your kids are growing and just really being present with them, listening to them with true empathy. Even as a youngster, that whole concept of children or we all do things for our own needs. We all do things to get our needs met and realizing what their needs are and how, when your child is young, the series of needs are relatively limited and they continue to grow as they get older. But keeping that in mind, does your kid need to clean the room because you just said, “I need you to clean your room?” That sort of thing and realizing what can help motivate them in those issues, making them part of as many decisions as is safe for the age of your child, keeping them in the mix.
Sarah Weisbarth:
I hear you talking about two different things there too, like giving them some sort of locus of control, like some sort of ability to influence their own lives and develop that motivation. But I also think about their needs and maybe when they’re acting out, especially we attribute that often to young kids, they’re also trying to get a need met then, they maybe can’t articulate it or don’t know what it is. We see that as a negative behavior instead of what might really be going on. Do you have any insights for that?
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Yeah. What most often is going on is there is something under… All of our behavior’s a product of what? It’s a need that we have and what is that need? That’s what I mean by those needs grow exponentially as our children get older. Especially when you identify something different in your child, “Oh, he doesn’t usually do this. He’s usually really sweet. What is going on?” And to be able to step back and have a little perspective where you’re not right there and you’re not taking it personally. Just step back, and whether you give them just a little space and grace or say, “This doesn’t seem right. We’re not going to…” Oftentimes with my son, I’ll say, “We’re not going to go there right now, but I want you to think about why it is you’re acting this way and we can talk about it.”
Yeah. That’s a great reminder as far as those needs that we have and we all do it. Oftentimes, we are the ones who are acting strange and Nate will say to me, “Mom, what’s the matter? You’re not acting like yourself.” He’s identified behaviors in me that I wasn’t aware I exhibited and evidently I do on a regular basis. That’s the other thing is be willing to learn even about yourself from your kids, which is amazing.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah. Yeah. I realize when I need to turn away from the stove, you said dinner can wait. There’s a certain tone of the voice in the story that’s being shared with me from school or it’s the, “I’ve moved across the kitchen three times and he’s tracked with me directly those three times,” or I’m like, “Oh, memo to me. I need to stop, and I need to turn away from the stove and focus in.” Some of that’s being aware, first and foremost, and maybe even studying our own needs aside. Then, it’s dialing into that being present. Then, you had mentioned a classic door opener. Tell me more. Are those some of the things that you’ve been practicing with your son overtime?
Mary Margaret Thomas:
It’s interesting because it’s sort of a family joke. If anyone says, “Tell me more about that,” everyone will break in to snicker and [inaudible 00:23:35] that thing again. But if you find a phrase that gets the same concept across that works, and because Nate is a creative thinker, when he’s having a problem or issue, I’ll say, “Tell me what that looks like to you. Really write the story and give me some creative coloring to that story, so I can really see it the way you see it. Try them on. Try them out.” It feels really odd and foreign at first when you’re saying those things. Find what works for the recipient of your message or find what sounds natural to you, but those are great ways to keep the conversation going.
Sarah Weisbarth:
I hear you using a door opener to actually create one of the concepts of empathy, your ability to see it as he sees it in a way that he sees it, his color and his creativity. Maybe my life, it would be an outline form with bullet points.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I want shape, I want form, I want color. Yeah. We all go about things differently. We’re all unique beings. We’re all of those representations through the DISC and then so many more layers on top of that. There are so many things about having a child and raising a child and it’s a bit of a crap shoot, but if we stick with it until the end, we start to see some really great things. Having Nate with this other child who’s just moved into the school district. I ran into his parents for the first time at a scrimmage the other night, and they were like, “You’re Nate’s mom? Thank you so much. We just love him. He made Hunter feels so comfortable.” I was like, “Yes.”
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yes. I’m like high-fiving you right now through the screen like, “Parenting wins.”
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Most of the time. Most of the time, it does.
Sarah Weisbarth:
One of the topics, we’ve been talking a lot about the listening skills and the empathy skills. What happens for you when maybe you’re having conflict with your son, or maybe he’s having conflict with others? How do you guide through those really core skills of effective confrontation?
Mary Margaret Thomas:
With my son, it’s making a situation comfortable for him. There was a situation at school and a friend of his was having some issues and he was playing around and this child got really offended how Nate was playing around, so he chased after him to apologize that he got his feelings hurt. Then, at the end of the day, Nate told me about it. I said, “Wow. That must have been really hard that your friend felt badly.” He said, “Yeah. I couldn’t find him, and I had to do this afterschool program.” I said, “Well, did you contact him?” So much is what they’re used to. He said, “Yeah. I texted him and he’s not returning my texts. He’s not answering.” The next morning, he rides Nate’s bus and we drove past his school and I was like, “Well, do you want to stop at his house?”
He was like, “I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know.” I said, “It’s entirely up to you. Whatever you want to do is fine with me.” He goes, “I want to stop.” But he was so nervous. He said, “Will you walk to the door with me?” I said, “Yes, but I’m not… Once we get to the door, it’s all you.” We got to the door. That’s part of being a teen and a tween is it took a half a second for them to apologize, [inaudible 00:27:00] and jump in the car. What a great thought for him to teach me too not to let things drag on.
You can advocate for yourself and fix a situation that was otherwise really messy. I know for myself, I want to fix things. I am not comfortable when things are uncomfortable. I don’t have a problem saying I made a mistake or I messed up, but I know with my husband, for example, I know the timing has to be right. He has taught me more patience than even the horses and the child. I have to let him be himself and give it some time and then go back to it. It definitely depends on the situation and taking the time to go about it in a way that the recipient can hear your message.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah. Creating that comfort and that willingness to not let things drag on?
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Yeah. Yeah. Even though it’s sticky, and remembering that all of this conflict is just a starter conversation. When you have a conflict with someone and you want to resolve that, the longer it’s been going on, the longer it may take to resolve. It’s never a pretty little package that you’re going to put a bow on it, but if you stay with it and it’s a relationship that you care about, you want to endure, you stick with it, you can get to the other side.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah. That’s great. Thank you, Mary Margaret. We are so enjoying our conversation with you. I feel like I’ve come up with about three more podcast topics that we’re going to call you back about someday and talk about. I’m sure our listeners are really enjoying where this is going, except we’re getting close to time.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Okay.
Sarah Weisbarth:
I’m going to ask you one of our kind of more wrap up questions. Anything that you want to inspire our listeners with any “aha” or insight that we haven’t touched on that you are just burning to make sure that people have the opportunity to hear?
Mary Margaret Thomas:
[inaudible 00:29:04].
Sarah Weisbarth:
[inaudible 00:29:05].
Mary Margaret Thomas:
When there is an opportunity to listen, don’t miss it. We’re given opportunities all the time and oftentimes we miss it. If you are aware enough that you have missed it, go back and say, “Hey, you know what? I think you were saying something there, and I think I missed it,” and see what you can learn.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Wow. Thank you.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Thank you.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Adam, I’m going to ask you. We’ve talked all the way from preschool to tween, to teen, and we touched on adult for a hot second there. Any other parenting questions you have for Mary Margaret as it relates to these skills, especially for your young ones?
Adam Salgat:
I think you talked a little bit about choice. Giving them a choice, so they have an opportunity to have control over their life. We try to do that a lot with our three-year-old. When that opportunity comes and she’s not making a decision, what are your general thoughts about moving… Sometimes you need to move things along.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Yeah.
Adam Salgat:
They need to get ready. You need to get out the door.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Right. At that age, I give them choices that I can live with whichever one they choose.
Adam Salgat:
It’s a good way to put it.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Relatively limited at that age and be, “Do you want to leave the house in 10 minutes or five minutes?” Those kind of things are easier versus those really wide open ones. At three, you might be there all day.
Adam Salgat:
Yeah, absolutely. There were times where it’s, “Red shirt or blue shirt?” It’s pretty much all the same, but sometimes she doesn’t want to make that choice.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Yeah. Well, you could give her the option to make the choice, or if she’d rather, then you’re happy to make the choice with her.
Adam Salgat:
I have said that before. I have done things like that. I think what I’m going to take away… One of my key takeaways from listening to you guys talk today is definitely be ready to listen when she has something to tell me and listen at her pace. I think that is something at a three-year-old’s pace is definitely different than ours. It can take her a moment or two to get something out, whether she’s processing it or whatever’s going on in her. Adorable, tiny little brain of… Wonderful brain of hers. Just be ready to wait for it and have the patience.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Because it’ll pay off in dividends when your teenage daughter comes to you and talks to you about something that she’s trying to deal with that school, that you’re the person she wants to talk to. It’s hugely rewarding.
Adam Salgat:
Well, that is the goal, to be there and be ready for that and to not be scared whatever that topic would be.
Sarah Weisbarth:
Yeah. I was going to say, as I’m just listening to this whole conversation as I just reflect on it, I really want to encourage our listeners that we don’t have to necessarily teach a class to the preschoolers about empathy. Instead, we need to be empathetic with our preschoolers. We don’t have to teach our tweens and our teens to handle conflict well or how to listen, instead we need to do that with them and they will learn by our example. We have that ability to influence, and we have power over our own choices and our own behavior, but that power comes with such responsibility because we’re teaching, especially the young people around us.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Definitely. It’s a gift that have to model behaviors, we would hope that they choose to exhibit in the future.
Adam Salgat:
Thank you both for joining us today. Mary Margaret, I hope that your son has a wonderful football season and good luck to him.
Mary Margaret Thomas:
Thank you.
Adam Salgat:
If you have any suggestions about subjects for our podcast, feel free to reach out through our Facebook page. If you’re interested in taking a class, visit ourcommunitylistens.org. Thank you again for listening to our podcast and don’t forget, each word, each action, each silent moment of listening sends a message. Therefore, you, part of the message. (silence)
